Wriging

I don't mean to be combative, but what you're saying is that you have taken over a site that 1) has a proven track record, 2) has formerly loyal advertisers, and 3) has PageRank 5, and you want people to help you revamp it to its original glory for free?

As a freelance writer, I see these kinds of ads all the time and I feel like they're so... rude. You wouldn't ask a doctor to give you a free x-ray or a designer to give you a free custom site design (well, some might), so why ask for writers, editors, etc. to do their work for free?

I understand that you're promising future money, but in this business, that is a promise often unkept. I can't tell you how many potential "clients" try to get reduced prices on promises of future work and I really can't even begin to comment on the teeny, tiny percentage of those promises that actually get fulfilled (it'll get my blood pressure up).

I know I'm going to get jumped on for my response to this note (I know, I'm just so mean), but please understand that my response isn't really directed at you. It's just that writers/editors are so undervalued. I get that you might not have a big budget for your site, but honestly, the only way you're ever going to get more advertisers is through good content so it's unfair to try and get that content for free.

@ErinR : no jumping over here I totally agree with you. It happens all the time in design and frustrates me in my field also.

Well, that's why I have it posted here. Most people will say no, maybe a daring few will say yes.

But that's how all things go.

In any case, that's why I specifically asked for teenagers or college students -- for your average kid, simply having their work shown on the front page of our site was enough because of our traffic. Many writers got jobs at TUAW, Macworld, etc based off their work on Macteens. And when you're 16, the prospect of working for free with that kind of incentive is not that bad.

If you are indeed a freelance writer, I would find it hard to believe that you never worked for free or unpaid to get near a publication or person you wanted to seek employment at. I worked at the San Jose Mercury News for $10/article several years ago, but when 250,000 people an issue are reading your stuff, it pays itself off in other ways.

So let me simply rephrase this posting. This is not a full-time job. This is not even a job. This is not targeted towards adults who have families to feed and rent to pay. I'm looking for some people to put maybe a couple hours a week into making sure our writers are meeting deadlines and editing the occasional article.

And for someone wanting to get noticed and who may be a student with few expenses, some free time, and an interest in the subject, this is not a bad deal.

Geez, what I miss when I'm gone.

If you are indeed a freelance writer, I would find it hard to believe that you never worked for free or unpaid to get near a publication or person you wanted to seek employment at.

Think about what you're asking. Freelancers don't actually work for free. They write an article, then they shop it around. They don't let it get published for free. If they were into free publishing, they'd push it out themselves. You query for free. You do synopses for free. You do not put out whole pieces of work for free. It just doesn't work that way.

And, you don't want a freelancer. You just don't. You want a real editor, someone who's had actual experience with editing. If you're looking to put Macteen back to it's former glory, you're going to need someone with experience who knows what they're doing. Not some high school student that got an A in English. I got that A in English, in virtually every English class I've ever taken. And I'm just close to the line in failing my grammar class.

You say you've got ad revenue. From where I'm standing, you need to budget for a real editor. That work takes so much more time than people think. If the site is going to push out posts like TUAW, meaning more than one a day, you're going to need a full-time editor. A post that took maybe half an hour to write will take at least an hour to fully edit. It always takes longer to edit. And then the managing on top of it? No part-time, two hour a week editor would be able to ensure quality.

but it's also not a huge job.

It is a huge job. Huge. Don't undersell it, until you've done it. I've only partially done it, and I know it isn't a job I'd take on part time, because it starts to consume everything else.

Don't sell editors short. If you need one, get one. It's definitely worth the money you'll invest in the long run.

Hrmm.

I've looked through the site, and I have to agree with lisa. It is a huge job. I'd rather spend time working on my blog, where I can control the tone and the style of my writing (since I do write it myself, after all), and not edit through most of the ... opinions. They read like rants. Really, really long rants, with much needed in terms of readability.

I suppose there are solid points behind the writing, but take a look at A List Apart: their editors require structure and focus in all their articles - an acquaintance of mine had to rewrite her article a few times before the editors were happy with it. Apparently her focus was too broad.

Picky, them.

I realize you might not want to sound like A List Apart, or meet their standards. But your standards and the tone you choose for your site are important. Hire an editor. Communicate with him where you want the site to go. Or at least pay money. Or, better yet, build a rapport with some of the readers and slowly ask them to take over. Guest post, etc.

Good luck.

I still agree with my first points: it's unfair (and, in my opinion, morally borderline) to ask for someone to work for free for any benefit other than their own. "Experience" and "exposure", the key words in this work-for-free industry, are NOT appropriate "benefits" for hours of blood, sweat, and tears. And, while we're on this topic, I have never worked for free. For too little, that is sure, but never for free.

I only took a cursory look at the site, but I am assuming (I know, I know, it makes an ass out of u and me) that you don't pay your contributors for their work. So you're getting a whole lot of content for free, on a hot topic (Apple stuff)... this will have the SEs hurling traffic at you in no time, if not already. You will be paid, and well, as the site has a great domain name, lots of content, and a history. There is no reason why your editor(s) shouldn't be [well] paid for helping to create a site that people, not just search engines, will love.

With that, I will suggest that we let the topic die. I don't want to create a problem and I certainly don't want bad feelings between any of us. I realize that employers have the right to their own opinions, and I just thought it fair to give a writer's opinion. I'll leave it at that. I truly wish you the best of luck in your venture.

Did you guys miss the part about the site being by teenagers for teenagers? I'm not trying to shortchange the site by getting a kid to edit it, I'm doing that because it's supposed to be a site for kids, by kids -- even if that means the writing is going to be less professional than the Wall Street Journal. I would never try to sell short your talents, and I realize the articles are not A List Apart status. Everyone on staff is a teenager, as are the readers. We're not trying to become TUAW, we're just trying to entertain the teenage Mac users. And yes, they like to rant, and read rants. They're teenagers. I was simply hoping there were some younger people on here who felt the same way.

I know some are because there are indeed a few 9rulers here who are Macteens staffers.

I apologize for any offense I am causing. I have a different perspective -- I live in Hollywood work on films, books and websites put out by nearly all of the big studios. In this business, everyone has worked for free to get to where they are. The average is six months of it before ever seeing a penny. We do it anyway.

And yes, Macteens is not a Hollywood film or a glorious startup, it's a niche site for teen geeks and there's no reason anyone of any stature should work for it for free. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I don't think it unreasonable to ask a teen to write content for free, I do think it will be hard to find it consistently until your site has a reputation.

I did both an unpaid internship with a congressman and unpaid internship with the agency I work for now before graduating and getting a paid position. It may not be the same with freelance writing, I really don't know, but I don't see it as unreasonable.

I just see the expectations of someone doing as often as you are asking as slightly unreasonable as you have no real reputation yet to make that experience worth it. As you get a reputation that request would have more value, and likely more responses. I think you have to ask for less originally.

dhollister, don't apologize. There's no offense taken at your proposal - we were just objectively analysing it.

I'm a young person (think pre-U) and I don't like to read rants. I do write them, occasionally, but if I read them it'll have to be very well written. Like something Dooce would write. That kind of quality writing.

So don't assume that all teenagers want to read rants. Good writing is universal, and if it's not good it's hardly likely it'll get read.

everyone has worked for free to get to where they are

They don't work for free. They work for experience. At this moment in time I don't see what Macteens can do for your writers, experience wise. Wouldn't it be better to attach yourself to a more established site, and write there? Or, better yet, write your own Mac-from-a-teen's-perspective blog. So it's a win-lose situation: Macteens wins, the writers won't get tangible benefits that are unique and unobtainable elsewhere. They may eventually get noticed through Macteens, but that'll involve dedicating a big part of their lives to the site, and this won't happen in the first place.

Try selling your site in your proposal. If it's true what you've said about people getting noticed through Macteens, include true stories. Make sure the site has a dedicated community. Effing redesign it - it doesn't look impressive enough.

Or, as various 9rulers have been saying in this note: start paying.

1) As I've mentioned above, lots of our writers have gone off to write for TUAW, AOL, Macworld, etc from their Macteens work. Also there's a few 9rulers like Glenn Wolsey who originally wrote for us.

2) We do have a dedicated community of users... we just need to grow it. We still get more traffic than starting a "teen with a perspective" blog would gain overnight. Macteens actually has a pretty good reputation for some things. For example, our Macworld videos get more hits and syndication each year than anybody else's on the planet.

3) We send our best writers to Macworld and WWDC each year, hook our writers up with products to review that they get to keep 90% of the time... still in my opinion not bad for a kid.

3) I would pay if we had money. I would pay in a heartbeat. But we're not currently taking a profit, and I don't see a dime despite the fact that I probably put 15 hours a week into it. I would dangle money in front of people if I had the money to give, but I do not.

*nods head*

You seem to have your heart in the right place. I wish I've a deep love for Macs so I can write something for you, but I don't. Yet.

I wish you the best of luck with Macteens.