Chawlk

1. Drawar
2. Fenxy
3. Decaflon
4. Two Credits
5. Wriging
6. Loose Suits
7. Chixe
8. Dud3s
9. Wing Colors

 

Ben:

So everyone is probably shocked that a Pasor signed up for 9Rules...but what the hey, you guys are eveywhere else....

On the question...I don't know Jack about NASCAR...but I hear that it is a very hot marketing area.

I am pretty sure that the folks around here will all say the same thing (to you) that they say to everyone else -- if the message is open and honest and from the heart, the message will eventually get through.

The unfortunate thing though is that the mainstream thinks that Jesus has been hijacked by James Dobson and his ilk. Add to that the intonation of your note that Jesus continues to be ever spinnable. The more that the image of Jesus is spun for this cause or that cause the more suspect the likes of the folks around here will be to Jesus.

Rather than ask us who Jesus should be...perhaps we need to ask you...who is Jesus...really? From an iconoclastic perspective, from a historic perspective, etc.

After all...you are the Princeton grad....oh, and welcome to the fray.

I tend to think that the qualities of Jesus are unisex, to be emulated by both men and women. Would you then perhaps consider the consequences of "marketing" Jesus as masculine maybe including the repelling of women already at your church? I tend to agree with Chacon's premise of being hesitant to put the "spin" on Jesus--I think true believers find they want the truth about Jesus, not how certain qualities of Jesus are conveniently complimentary to him-(or her-) self.

I have been thinking more about your questions...here and on your blog...and I think that the church really just needs to steal Jesus back from the conservatives and return him to the likes of MLK and Gandhi. Then...perhaps men AND women would flock back to the church.

Thanks for your thoughts.

For the record, one of the few things Jesus and I have in common is that we both were raised by step-fathers who worked as carpenters. Nonetheless, I still read poetry and go to the opera. My dad and I talk about baking bread together.

For better or for worse, Jesus is very spinable. Every culture and generation remakes Jesus in its own image, and for the most part, I think that’s good. It is the nature of Jesus to be forever incarnate, but, sometimes Jesus is remade to reflect the parts of a culture or society that are less than desirable.

Which leads me to men. Part of what bugs me about the new push for a masculine Jesus is the narrow definition of what it means to be a man. This hits on what Jerry was saying. I mean who chooses what men want to see in Jesus, and which men are being targeted in the Jesus spin? I don’t recognize myself in the man church ideas of masculinity, nor do I recognize my masculine heroes.

I truly want the huntin’ fishin’ football lovin’ hummer drivin’ manly man to have a church (and a savior), but—as Estarla mentioned--I don’t want to alienate the women who are the soul of the church, nor do I wan to turn off men like me.

Well, this is good stuff to think about. Now I’ve got to go preach a sermon. My text is the story of Mary Magdalene anointing Jesus’ feet. Not very manly.

Cheers,

Ben

I think it's extremely important to not wrap Jesus up in spin, we should not try to angle Him into a certain type of image but should just present Him as the BIble presents Him. Let the word of God do the work, don't dress it up into something that we think people want to see or hear as what ever we do will be wrong. God will and does speak through the works of Jesus and it is up to Him how that happens and to who that happens. All we should be doing is talking about the gospel as honestly and openly as we can and let God do the work. People won't want to see an initial image of Jesus that in fact is only half of the story, the Word of God is enough just keep speaking it.

I agree that we should present Jesus without spin, but the problem is that I'm not sure its possible not to spin Jesus. As much as I want to read the Bible without cultural baggage, I'm still who I am and who I am affects how I read and understand the stories of Jesus. I figure that the best I can do is simply to acknowledge my cultural and personal baggage as I encounter Jesus in scripture and as I present Jesus (and scripture) to others...

When I'm out preaching I often use this line:

"Jesus isn't some skinny white guy in a pretty robe! He's a strong and mighty King that sits on the throne of heaven!"

I don't think we need to portray Jesus as an American burly man to attract the men of the world. I think we need to just magnify the warrior side of Jesus...the one that set out to destroy the works of the devil by healing the sick, raising the dead and casting out devils.

There's nothing more "manly" in my eyes than being able to look at cancer and say "flee!" and have it actually go. Men are warriors of the Kingdom of heaven and we need to learn how to pick up the sword and use it. Although not forsaking the gentleness. It's the whole wise as serpents harmless as doves deal.

If we show the men that there is a real war to be faught and show them how to fight it, they'll show up, it's in our makeup. Right now, too many men think Christianity and Jesus is some sissy little thing.

Here's a blog post I read that deals with this kind of topic:
http://www.madetopraisehim.com/item/735

Here's a man named David Hogan who I would consider a true man of the gospel: http://www.paulferree.com/blog/category/christian/david-hogan/

Paulferee,

OK, so here's my question: has your representation of Jesus as warrior and your challenge to Christian men that we learn to "pick up a sword and use it" been effective in reaching men? Do more men attend your church than, say mine? (We're probably 60/40 women to men)

Incidentally, tho' I'm probably partially responsible for the misconception that Chrsitianity and Jesus is "some sissy thing," I happen to know how to use a sword, which is to say, that I used to be able to hold my own on a fencing piste against nationally ranked fencers (believe me, it's been a looong time). It is amazing how much sword play (the real stuff, not the stuff in movies) resembles ballet.

On my blog we're having a similar conversation (http://bendaniel.org/?p=75), and a friend of mine who is teaches American Religious History at a local college made the following observation about the new church for men movement:

"Fascinating movement: I’m not of the school that history repeats itself, but I do find this turn to a more masculine Jesus intriguing, largely because we have been there and done that. A century ago American Christianity experienced a similar anxiety, giving rise to “muscular Christianity” (the YMCA was one product of that movement). Then came the Men in Religion Forward Movement and other similar efforts (ranging from a host of books to men’s revivals) to infuse the masculine into religion, and religion into the masculine. What is striking to me about these movements is that probably say more about the cultural context (including the shadow of war in both cases and increasing anxiety about gender identity and roles) than they do about religion, which, with the exception of early Puritanism, has always had more female than male participants in America."

Ben

Ben: has your representation of Jesus as warrior and your challenge to Christian men that we learn to "pick up a sword and use it" been effective in reaching men? Do more men attend your church than, say mine?

I don't have a church so I can't answer your question. But, I think the men that I do talk to that are more understanding of the "victorious warrior" side of Jesus are more agressive in their commitment to fulfilling the call to preach the gospel. The ones that don't seem to be much more passive.

If you tell men there is a war to fight, they will fight. If you tell them there is no war, they will sit on their couch and watch TV all day ;-).

The seed you sow is the plant you reap.

@ Chacon: you said, "So everyone is probably shocked that a Pasor signed up for 9Rules...but what the hey, you guys are eveywhere else...." I'm a pastor and I'm a member of 9rules.

@ All: I think philbowel hit the nail on the head, we need to strive toward not spinning Jesus at all. The problem, As revbennyd said, is that everyone has a slant, everyone has their biases. I think first and foremost people should recognize that. The best way we can present Jesus in an unbiased way is to first admit our biases publicly, up front. Then people have more information with which to make an informed decision about what we're saying.

@ revbennyd: I do tend to agree with you that I don't like this "masculinity spin" I'm seeing lately. I know what you're talking about too. I really should write up a post on this on my blog because there's a lot about it that bothers me.

I think the idea of Jesus as a "heavenly NASCAR buddy" is ridiculous and borderline blasphemy. At the same time, however, it bothers me when women try to feminize Jesus into some kind of boyfriend model. i.e. "I'm dating Jesus." Rubbish.

On the "Jesus is my Boyfriend" topic: This is not a new issue. As a solo pastor in small churches, I've been given the good work and the honor of burying a lot of women of the generation that loved the hymn "In the Garden." As a result, we sing "AAAAAaaand he walks...with...me and he talks...with...me.. and he teeeeels me I am his own" at funerals a lot.

And I always find myself wondering if these ladies' husbands knew about this Jesus guy...

LOL. I hear ya. ;)

I heard Pastor Mark Driscoll speak at a conference, and said that he couldn't worship someone he could beat up!

Can I just say that when revbennyd recalled that line in the hymn "In the Garden" that disturbingly conjured up some long-buried memories from when I was a child, of the voices of the women in my church singing those words particularly loud? And it was weird. Because it's not as if the men had stopped singing...just that the women really did get louder because that line seemed the most meaningful to them. Too interesting.

Just to contrast, the congregation I now belong to is lead by a rock band worship team. So hymns in general bring back to me a different (childhood) era of my faith. :)

@frotzed: No offense intended. I just didn't know...and certainly not what I expected. How many pastors are there in 9Rules?

cpoteet,

"he couldn't worship someone he could beat up!"

This gives new meaning to the term "bully pulpit."

If you'll allwo me to play devil's advocate, as we apporach Holy Week and all of its observations of Christ's passion, I'm aware that we worship a God who was beat up. The words of Isaiah come to mind: "He had no form or magesty that that we should look at him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by others; a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity; and as one from whom others hide thier faces he was despiesed and we held him of no account."

As Christians we understand this "Suffering Servant" passage to be a prophecy that points to Christ. Yet it doesn't sit well with the "manly image" of the Warrior Christ.

Ben