Chawlk

1. Drawar
2. Fenxy
3. Decaflon
4. Two Credits
5. Wriging
6. Loose Suits
7. Chixe
8. Dud3s
9. Wing Colors

 

No. But let me Guess, You are confused on the Faith of Christians.

It's pretty hard to be confused about something when you grew up in it from the time you could breathe and were once of the faith. Perhaps you are confused with the fact that anyone could have a different opinion, especially after “experiencing the wonders of Christianity?”

If you notice, Christ spent the abundance of His time teaching HIS people.

Excellent point, Michael, so why are you "teaching" those who aren't "his?" And don't act like you aren't trying to preach and teach; to say otherwise would be an obvious lie. Yet, to be fair, Christ’s almost entirely loving actions within his community is what drew people to him—his power to heal, his faith, his kindness.

I believe if you re-read my posts, I teach It is Christ that wins people over, Not myself.

Then please, for the love of God, start praying for us all, rather than preaching. It's far too much like a televangelist meeting, and yet I'm compelled to watch--to click on the link--in the same way that I have to see just how bad a car wreck is.

I wondered when I was of the religion, and I wonder even to this day, why any Christians feel compelled to point out the ways of nonbelievers, as if to prove them wrong. Beliefs (and politics) are too personal. You are going to end up with these kind of results EVERY SINGLE TIME, because the average person is not good at keeping peace over such things. So if you believe so strongly in your god, believe that he is the one at work, not you, perhaps you should pray to him to show atheists their problematic ways and beliefs than try to do it yourself. It will not win you, nor your beliefs, any glory or favor by going into a place to argue impossibly grey areas of life.

Your issues aren't with ME people, Your issues are with Christ.

It's hard to have issues with something you don't believe in. To sort of pay kudos to another person's reply to you: I don't have issues with Santa, but if I met a 30-year-old, sane man who believed in him and rebuked me for not...yeah, I'd perhaps have issues with him or just shrug him off as a wacko.

I believe a historical Christ lived, but the idea that he is the savior--or, even more so, the only savior--is just preposterous to me. But okay, that's fine if you want to believe he’s the one; it’s your right. Got nothing against the historical or even spiritual Jesus. Just don't believe in the spiritual one from a personal stance.

I do, however, have something against a group of his "followers." I have something against their hate, their intolerance, their uncaring attitude that makes others of their own faith look bad.

Ohhhh, Where was I? You mean "Conform yourself to the world so they will listen"? I believe the Bible teaches "Do NOT Conform yourself to this world but be TRANSFORMED by it".

OH MY GOD--I MEAN, GOSH--I'VE SEEN THE LIGHT. I'M TRANSFORMED. Yeah. I just had a little explosion inside. Must have been what I had for dinner, really.

But no, no one ever said “conform to the world.” I think most of the people here would agree that’s stupid, even if they don’t believe in your god. A lot of Christians have a pretty warped view of “the world” and “the worldly people.” Guess what? I’m not a Christian, but I’ve never smoked, never done drugs, never been promiscuous; some Christians should really stop associating such things with those who are not of their faith. I have been honorable when others have been nothing but disrespectful to me, and it didn’t take “God” for me to do that. At the end of the day, I’m pretty much the average person trying to do right.

So when I say things about presenting yourself in a more palatable fashion, I’m not asking you to conform to any “worldly ways.” I’m asking you to consider what you’re saying to other people and to consider how you would feel if they said the same things, or something similar, to Christianity. You know, walking a mile in their shoes, so to speak. That’s not conforming to any way. That’s being kind and thoughtful and, at the end of the day, has very little to do with faith and everything to do with good manners.

Sorry, But you have the wrong person if you think I am going to sugar coat things for people and pervert the Gospel to make it appealing to unbelievers.

Trust me. I didn't think you'd sugarcoat anything. You are not one for tact, and you dislike us and “our ways,” because we’re evil and wicked in your eyes. I get it.

Unless you are angry that I don't meet your cookie cutter Christian criteria in the likes of you can't attack me for teaching "You all need to come seek God". Like I said, That's not what the Bible teaches. Since you enjoy studying Christianity, I would love to discuss this further VIA E-Mail.

The funny thing is that your kind of belief in God--a very similar way of believing that my grandfather has--is one of the biggest reasons I could never "buy into" your god. It's not love, and so the whole "God is love" verses sort of get screwed over. Your behavior, your quickness to judge, is a contradiction to the belief you so steadfastly defend.

And yes, I enjoy studying all religions; I find them fascinating. You should consider studying some of the deeper histories of Christianity and other faiths; you'll find it interesting, all the "coincidental" connections. But no, I think I'll refrain from carrying on an email conversation with you, because it would be little different from this public one we're having now, and honestly, I've not got the time or energy for circular debates (thus the reason I am replying to you almost six days later). If you wanted to share stuff, that'd be one thing; that could be cool. But, you want to point out the "erroneous" ways of everyone but you and people who believe exactly like you.

I don't like that in anyone. My dislike for that attitude is not limited to Christianity, so don’t think you’re the only victim! I don't like atheists who are like that. I don't like agnostics who are like that. My dislike for that instigating, aggressive attitude is not religion-oriented. Even so, I remain calm and polite with it all, but only for a time. Everyone has a line drawn for themselves. And this whole time I have been fairly calm and rational in my replies to your antics, but now I'm just tired of it, so I'm laying it down with all the truth and honesty that you seem to love.

Yeaaaaa, If you took the time to read other posts, I have said "I like science, It's fun". I am not sitting at a computer, in a rolling chair, in a heated home thanks to science. It's because I've been blessed.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but some of your blessings have come from the minds of "dirty sinners." And some of your blessings have been greatly rebuked by men and women of faith in the past. (Some--look at the Amish!--still deny it.) We won’t even touch on the fact that likely many of the products you use on a daily basis are produced in undoubtedly unethical ways—unethical to workers’ rights, to their pay, to their health—or from unethical corporations as a whole. Or do you think China, most likely the producer of many of your daily items, is a dream place for employees? So does God bless you through unethical behavior?

And, if you are truly “blessed,” let’s see you get these things—your computer and heating, for instance—without science. Let’s see your faith perform a miracle and somehow get those things to you without science playing a part, or if science truly isn’t your gripe, let’s see you truly get blessed with those items, rather than pay for them from your own hard work. It doesn’t happen.

And I’ll agree with others, to bless God for the good things and attribute the bad things in your life to evil or Satan is a cop-out. I think a nonbeliever you discover this, because you realize your life can be amazingly good or amazingly bad, and it is usually in direct proportion to how much effort you put in and just random chance (which comes and goes).

BTW: Where did the atoms and molecules come from?

I agree with this. I think it is one of the most basic, yet strongest questions against hardcore atheism. I'm agnostic. But, because I agree with this question does not mean I'm a Christian or can believe in your god. I've tried. I can't. Period, the end. I'm fascinated by your god, but no more or less than I am by others.

Then, as someone else mentioned, if you abide by the theory that everything must come from something (in an attempt to explain away scientific theories), it must be an endless cycle like that, and so you must wonder where your god came from.

No I entered with confidence in History and Christ.

I seem to remember the Crusades beginning that way. Histories are doctored by their makers more than you might guess and bend to the will of those who present them—the kings, the queens, the presidents, the preachers, the writers. Look up the history of hell and information on the translations of (and the politics behind) the KJV of the Bible. Fascinating stuff.

For a bunch of people who confess they don't believe in the Bible, It would be nice to find 1 that knows what the Bible teaches in Context and doesn't mention Christ's atonement for all of Man.

Oh, so now you're perfect and know the exact meaning of everything in the Bible, you understand everything in the exact context that the Hebrew and Greek writers intended? I'm impressed! What about the Christians who disagree with you (as there have been one or two on here, at the very least)? Are they just blinded by Satan or worldliness, too? Poor them, poor us! Maybe you're the only one who “gets” the Bible. All alone in the world! Thank goodness you've got your perfect understanding--now if only you could find that one other person who understood in the same exact way as you—because, obviously, that is the right way.

Good luck.

And honestly, do you think posting a note on 9rules about the errors of atheism is going to find you a Christian friend? There are countless Christian forums that you could use for that. I’m not saying leave at all; I’m just saying honestly why think you’re going to find something different in a mainly (and happily) secular network?

Pro 17:15 He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord. (AWWWW, Someone is in trouble!)

Foregoing all discussions which might require some lengthy defining of vague words such as "wicked" and "righteous" (All according to who? Your god or another’s, your version of God or another’s, and under what circumstances? And what about the grey areas of life?), one must believe in your god to believe he or she is in trouble.

One day we will all meet at the gates. Many with mouthes closed.
This is a Book for believers, It cannot be used against us.

I would argue that it can't be used against those who don't believe in it, at least in this life of the world. Then, again, it’s a circular matter of whether it exists beyond that. For you who believe in it, however, let me begin. Just thought I’d do an old run through of Proverbs for you. Seems that in condemning us, you missed a few verses.

Proverbs 2:13,17 - Blessed is the man who finds wisdom, the man who gains understanding....Her ways are pleasant ways, and all her paths are peace.

Proverbs 6:16, 19 - There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him:....a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

Proverbs 10:12 - Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.

Proverbs 10:19 - When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise.

Proverbs 11:12 - A man who lacks judgment derides his neighbor, but a man of understanding holds his tongue. (See the very title of this note!)

Proverbs 12:8 - A man is praised according to his wisdom, but men with warped minds are despised.

Proverbs 12:16 - A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.

Proverbs 12:18 - Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. There is deceit in the hearts of those who plot evil, but joy for those who promote peace.

Proverbs 13:10 - Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take advice.

Proverbs 15:1 - A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

Proverbs 15:18 - A hot-tempered man stirs up dissension, but a patient man calms a quarrel.

Proverbs 16:7 - When a man's ways are pleasing to the Lord, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

Proverbs 16:21 - The wise in heart are called discerning, and pleasant words promote instruction (or make a man persuasive).

Proverbs 17:27-28 - A man of knowledge uses words with restraint, and a man of understanding is even-tempered. Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue.

Proverbs 19:11 - A man's wisdom gives him patience; it is to his glory to overlook an offense.

Proverbs 20:3 - It is to a man's honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel.

Proverbs 26:12 - Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

If you don’t believe the Bible can be used against its believers, as in to curb their behavior, to guide them with wisdom, then what is the point of it in the first place?

Where are your peaceful ways, your patience, your calming of quarrels? I see invitations (again, see the title of this note) to begin arguments. I do not see a wise man who has been so favored by “God” that his words are persuasive to us and leave us longing for your sort of faith. In contrast, I see where the wall between us has grown larger.

Congratulations.

/me removes the "Longest Reply Ever" medal from his own neck and puts it around Lelia's

I stay out of topics like this. And I never start them.

I've learned that lesson as well.

You think this is a big deal. just check out this debate at the Guardian's 'comment is free'. This one takes the biscuit.

Good Lord!

First let me say one small thing in michaellouviere's defense. At least he quoted C.S. Lewis who was himself at one time an atheist. I would highly suggest the reading of Mere Christianity for a much more sensible approach than the thread starter/title. And as for the response about creation and/or the age of the earth, let me just point out first that any sensible evolutionist will tell you that they cannot explain the existence of life. And second, the creation account in the Bible is a little bit different than most people take it to be.

Under the context of ancient Hebrew belief, function is one of the most important things to existence. So Genesis 1 can be taken to be God assigning function to things that were material. Genesis 1 is also quite poetic in nature.
Day 1: Light and Dark - Day 4: Sun, moon and stars
Day 2: Waters - Day 5: Water creatures
Day 3: Land - Day 6: Land creatures

It is also important to note that Genesis 1 describes the function of God. In the Hebrew, the words for sun, moon, and stars are not the actual names of the things but that which describes them. This was to move away from the prevalent beliefs of the Mesopotamian that the sun, moon, and stars were in fact gods. This places God over them.

So there are two purposes if you will for Genesis 1. One is to describe function. The second is to differentiate from other belief systems right of the bat.

Notice that this interpretation says nothing about time or age of the earth (it really isn't that important to Christian or Jewish belief). There is scientific evidence for old earth (geological formations, distance of stars, craters on the moon, etc). There is also evidence for young earth (moon dust, size of the sun, etc). Suffice it to say that even from a purely scientific standpoint, there is no clear cut solution.

I myself believe the earth is young but has the appearance of age. I also believe that God physically created as well as assigned function, but that's more a matter of who I believe God to be and how I believe God works than a matter of dogma, so I could care less if you agree with me or not.

As for why I believe the Bible to be true. Because I have perceived the existence of God from the answering of prayers and I have perceived the existence of evil from the actions of all mankind and I have perceived a need to reconcile the two and I have believed Christ to fill that need.

As for why you should believe the Bible to be true? I can't tell you that any more than I can tell you that I'm not just a figment of your imagination in some dream you've never woken up from. I can only tell you what I believe and live by what I say and hope you the best in life.

Well, it appears that I cannot edit my own note, so I will post a correction as a second note...

I can't tell you that any more than I can tell you that I'm not just a figment of your imagination in some dream you've never woken up from.

I meant to say

I can't prove its truth to you any more than I could prove to you that I'm not just a figment of your imagination in some dream you've never woken up from.

eternalsword : beautifully put, Descartes would be happy, but he's dead.

What I hate is when someone likes to impose their view as gospel, whichever side it comes from.

Unfortunately though, that's the nature of humans. We have a high intolerance of uncertainty... as least in my opinion anyway.

Oli-

Let me see if I can answer your questions.

As to the first ("How does religion account for carbon dating results?"), the faithful have a simple answer: Carbon dating shows the dates it does because God wants it to. If God is all powerful, he can give rocks whatever characteristics he wants and produce any result in carbon dating tests he desires. This is very much the same as the argument about the speed of light and the distance of the stars. There is light out there that must have been traveling much longer than six-thousand years to have reached us. But when God created the universe, he started that light out already part way here.

You're second question asks why someone would believe the literal truth of the Bible -- or any other holy work -- over the empirically backed claims of science. This is a huge inquiry, as it gets to the heart of why people believe propositions based on religious faith at all. Many answers have been advanced, from evolutionary ("there are parts of the brain the predispose us to do so") to social ("religions provide societal glue") to psychological ("we're all afraid of death being the end"). Mythologies grew up around those initial belief seeds and the power of authority and tradition over countless generations fixed them in the minds of millions.