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RightOn: What do you mean by fear? As in someone telling you if you don't do a certain thing, you're going to hell?

Funny Peroty, just being inclusive and coming from someone who is Jewish I'd like to know their opinion wouldn't you?

auburn: that's very interesting to me please explain what you believe being Jewish and how it relates to the Old Testament Adam, Abrahamic Covenant etc.

I'm implying that because of the spiritual death of Adam was due to not obeying God's only commandment, we are all spiritually dead because of Him and we because of him are 'sinners'. Eve wasn't even created when God gave Adam the one commandment. This spiritual death is THE only sin as God told Adam, not Eve:

Genesis 2: 16-17
"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

@Ozone42: I didn't mean to imply that at all.

To address that women are also born into sin the same way men are, the roots of which are Adam's sin, the first human male.

This is a good conversation and my belief, which is a biblically based one is this:
Sin is the spiritual death and lack of relationship with God, brought about by the freewill of one man.

I also believe this means even babies. The bible states that there are none righteous, no not one. Righteousness is being in right standing with God, without sin. This righteousness comes from accepting Christ's righteousness because He is perfect and is the life and he is in right standing with God. He is sinless because he was born through a virgin birth (no man involved).

Now as a man I still have a freewill, I can choose now life or death.

Thoughts?

Bartoneus: As a Christian, and I'm assuming you are, what is it you're saying God expects that you're falling short in?

I want to know what you've been told or why you've been told you're a sinner, because I want to understand how or what has been told to people.

@Bartoneus: Your language skills far surpass mine- thanks.

Here are a few reasons I was told I was a sinner:

I had long hair.
I have blue hair.
I have earrings.
I listen to rock music.
I had sex before I was married.
I practiced magic (not the card tricks either).
I used drugs
I used alcohol
I rebelled against my parents.
I have tattoos.

@Bartoneus: Really when you and others rudely hijacked the thread with your childish remarks and sarcasm, the thread ended itself and became nothing more than a mob.

It's true that nothing I say will change anyone, its the power of God through His word that will change someone. It's God that does it, not me -- hence the 'I'm not trying to change anyone' I'm just the messenger. There is no pity party here believe me.

The answer to my question is a real relationship with Jesus Christ but Im sure you'll argue that too and contradict yourself then again.

Here have the last word... its all yours.

Peroty: I'm not trying to get you into a church. This post wasn't to reach people, it was to understand people's definition of Christianity. I asked a lot of questions in order to understand your stance, when I understood it, I said what I thought is the truth and encouraged you to consider the rest of the passage. I didn't condemn you, I didn't say you were going to hell. I merely stated to someone who said they didn't know God, that maybe you should consider the whole principle instead part of it. I'm not so sure this is your situation now that I've read everything you've had to say.

Nothing I say will change you or anyone else. Each person is responsible and will be held accountable for the truth they've obeyed and ignored.

Accept the responsibility and quit blaming the church, and everyone else for your decisions. If you see such terrible things in the church you came from you should have approached them to correct them as the bible teaches us to do; instead of leaving and throwing a pity party. Get some back bone and be who you say you are.

life joy gun

I have two daughters hence the gun, boys beware.

@Bartoneus: By criticizing me, aren't you also guilty of the very thing you are accusing me of?

The answers I received both on 9rules and facebook will be used in an upcoming article with the same title as this thread- maybe you should wait and read it.

@Peroty: You said yourself you weren't a Christian.

Anyway... I don't tend to identify myself as a Christian or as any religion. However, I try to live by the ideals set forth by the Christian faith.

So, I have to ask, what was your intention of starting this note? What did you hope to accomplish with such inflammatory wording?

You asked for an explanation or definition from us "Christians" and that's what you've gotten. Not what you were expecting?

This makes me believe that you didn't really read the entire thread. I stated previously,

There have only been a few people who have even answered the question. My question was 'What makes you a Christian?' and the reason I asked it was because I've read several threads ( like this one: http://9rules.com/religion/notes/8174/) which lead me to believe that the term Christian is being used in a way in which I'm unfamiliar. I stated what I believe it to mean. And I get answers from people who state they don't believe in God and have no relationship with Him. Why are they answering the question? I'm not debating their Christianity, I'm debating their unbelief. Those who have stated they are believers, and have a relationship with God, I've not debated.

The responses from the people who said they were Christians are exactly what I was looking for.

I think this question\thread has been answered. Look for my next question to come soon. Thank you all for participating, I do appreciate it.

@Peroty: I agree with a lot of what you just posted especially the part about where people use it as a crutch and wait on God to fix it. Jesus isn't our grandma.

@estarla:

You cannot talk to non-Christians and try to change what they believe if they do not even care about it.

Clearly if they didn't believe, then they shouldn't have responded to the question. As such as they did, tells me they do care. I don't have the ability to change anyone nor am I trying to. I just wanted answers to my question from 'Christians'.

Hey- try going to a country club without a membership and see what happens. Try telling them you believe you are a member because you dress nice, have a nice car, and play golf all the time. They will tell you the truth and you won't have any question about your membership from that point on.

Fortunately, its easier to get into Heaven than a country club, you just have to know God.

It is more important to change what people care about than to change what they believe! You can believe without caring, but you can't care without believing.

O_o doesn't that contradict itself? Of course I don't know your statements' context, but John 3 says believing is pretty darn important.

@Bartoneus:

The problem a lot of people have with that is you are instantly, presumptively, and harshly bringing their faith under scrutiny without knowing anything about them.

You mean the problem you have, unless you have a discussion about me somewhere else that I'm unaware of with other people involved?

I think you have taken my words directed to Peroty and misconstrued and mis-interpreted the whole message and meaning and tried to apply them to everyone and all responders. Please re-read it and if you have further issues, I'd be glad to chat about it on gtalk (mircury-at-gmail) or in PM.

Allow me to summarize it for you:

Brandon: What makes you a Christian?

Peroty: I try to live by the ideals set forth by the Christian faith. Basically, I embrace the love thy brother and do unto others as you'd have them do unto you parts

Brandon: why would you choose one Christian principle to live by and not the others?

Peroty: The reason I'd choose to live by some parts and not others are the ones I feel are important to my life and my interactions with others. I don't feel that loving God above all is that important.

Brandon: So...
If the Bible, from which you gain the one life principle of loving thy neighbour as thyself, also says the other is equally important and like the first one. Aren't you also denying the one which you claim to live by, by denying its counterpart? So how can you do the second one without doing the first one? Are you kidding yourself into believing you love your neighbor without wholly believing what you say you believe?

1 John 4:7 states:

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

This passage says that 'love is of God'; meaning that love comes from knowing God, and you can't really love without knowing God. This goes back to the two commandments which Jesus stated. You can't love your neighbor without loving God because the love to love your neighbor comes from God Himself, for He is love.

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Please re-read the Peroty and @Peroty conversation.

I find it amusing that parents are ok with their children reading stories that are based upon witchcraft, and not ok when a wizard is gay.

ditto to xirclebox's statement, until its supported no reason to wrestle with it.

@Bartoneus:
Aside from the fact that my question was directed to people who call themselves Christian. Aside from the fact that you've done nothing but scoff and criticize.

Let me try and understand you, after all this question was directed to you. You think I should just let anyone who believes:

• that because they try and live right
• do the right thing
• be true to themselves
• do good works

That they are 'Christians' and they will have eternal life and go to Heaven?

You're kidding me right? That's the most absurd thing I've ever read. Is that being 'Inclusive'? Inclusive to what?

What I've said might offend ideaologies that people have which aren't based upon pure sound Biblical truth or relationship with Him. I'm ok with that. Especially since I never said what you said I said, It was a straight quote from the scripture. God said it. People aren't offended at me, they are offended at the truth in which I've only repeated because I care about the person I've repeated it to. I didn't go to their churches or religious meetings and push them out. Most likely it wasn't a good church, and I refuse to accept your blame for it.

Your slogan: Inclusive, rather than Exclusive is in and of itself excluding people from knowing the truth, knowing that their lives can be more than it is, knowing something beyond religion and what man has tried to make the Church, and excluding people from Heaven but including them in Hell. I hope that works out for you.

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I prefer fluid layouts, but most of the time 1024x768 fixed is what I have to go with until IE6 dies.

@Ryanarrowsmith: I don't think I wanted to debate, but rather understand differing points of view from those who profess to be a Christian.

There have only been a few people who have even answered the question. My question was 'What makes you a Christian?' and the reason I asked it was because I've read several threads ( like this one: http://9rules.com/religion/notes/8174/) which lead me to believe that the term Christian is being used in a way in which I'm unfamiliar. I stated what I believe it to mean. And I get answers from people who state they don't believe in God and have no relationship with Him. Why are they answering the question? I'm not debating their Christianity, I'm debating their unbelief. Those who have stated they are believers, and have a relationship with God, such as yourself ;) I've not debated. And I do appreciate your words, thank you!

@peroty: I appreciate you sharing a view that appears to be very common amongst people I've met. I do hope you will consider what I've written in an honest way and that perhaps that if the one principle you live by is good that the other about loving God is good also. The church isn't God and I'm sorry you were driven away. I'd be interested in understanding why you were driven away if you want you can message that to me.

@osugodfan: I wasn't referencing the act of giving, but the issue of the heart of giving. Most people only care enough about God to 'tip' Him, when He said not just 10% but the first fruits of everything is His. Why is it His? Because He is the source of all things, He gives us everything we have. The 10% is acknowledges this and God in turn blesses those who put Him first and acknowledge Him in this way. As well as to provide for the local church that you attend , so there can be meat in the store house. You should never give by being compelled or our of fraudulent behavior but there is nothing wrong with asking when its obvious people are coming but not obeying God's word.

@RightOn: Ok I'm glad no one killed your child, that's a relief.

@Mjoshua: You hit it in the head, thank you. I totally agree and was the whole point to my question in the first place. This is the difference between religious Christianity(acts, theology of man) and being a Christian.
Living the life, baring the fruit, manifesting grace through how we live our lives according to His principles and His Spirit through forgiveness. Exemplifying Christ through the way we live our lives, not just in public, but in private as well.

@Bartoneus: If you re-read the discussion I was having with Peroty you will see that I'm basing my conversation in regards to love with the principle of love he says he lives by from the Bible which also say another principle is equally important and for the reason of that Love, pure love, the agape kind of love (there are three kinds of love) only comes from God. And the love the Bible is speaking of there is the God kind of love. I didn't say, I'm merely repeating it with Love because I do care and want people to know- especially when they say they don't know God, which he did.

@RightOn: I'm sorry you've experienced those things. Are you saying someone killed your child? I don't think questions outside the book are disrespectful and wrong... good grief no, ask away I'm not offended in anyway or judgemental I want to learn. I know some religious people do though, and I'm sorry.

As far as judging there are different kinds of judgement. I think what you are referring to doesn't say 'Don't judge', in fact I hear this a lot and if you look up the reference its found here and Jesus is talking:

Luke 6:34-49
He is saying not to make judgements without first judging yourself or you're a hypocrite. I have no right judging a matter in which I too am guilty. This is why living the life is important as to professing it only. If I don't judge myself according to scripture and live the life, then I'm nothing but a hypocrite.

In 1 Corinthians 6:2, Paul begins telling us that we will indeed be judges and should judge matters.

Let me ask you, do you not judge your child in what they are doing as right or wrong according to your beliefs?

As an example, if you're child is walking out to the street curb and into the street are they right or wrong? Do you just let them go?

Of course not, we all make judgments everyday which brings me back to a point I made earlier.

If we can't trust ourselves to tell the truth always, how can we trust ourselves to make good judgements? The answer is, we can't. We NEED an answer outside of us, which is God, the Holy Spirit, His word, Jesus.

And guess what, when we receive Jesus as Lord, He as Lord puts His spirit inside of us to lead us, guide us, perfect us, but that only happens when we submit to His principles and not our own. You know this because you call out to your child heading to the street and discipline them to not do it again ( atleast I hope you do).
I hope you understand what I'm saying now.

As far as the money thing is concerned... I've seen it one too many times as well. We're instructed to give freely without pressure in the New Testament. The flip side is, only about 6% of a congregation give anything and most of that is just a tip. People want good music, want good childcare and classes, but they don't want to give or tithe according to scripture. I'd hate to be a pastor who had to stand from the pulpit of the church and beg for money to cover a sound system. He's there to preach, not raise money.

@bartoneus: I understand what you are saying, but what I was pointing out is that if a person doesn't know God, then the person doesn't know love even when they think they do.

@Mjoshua: agreed! Thank you!

@osugodfan: I understand, and good insight, though the topic is just to understand how others who profess to be Christian define that.

@peroty: Thanks for the good conversation, you're making me think! I believe you can believe parts of the Bible if you want, I just wanted you to think about that if one principle is good, wouldn't it also be safe to say the others are as well? I also don't agree with you when you say " religion isn't important to you", you're posting in a religious category ;). AND then again, I'm not a religious person either, I tend to think Christianity as something more than what man has made it, more about relationship with God and man, and man to mankind, being a disciple of Christ.

@RightOn: Well this topic has kinda been shifted from my original question but its still a good conversation for me. Let me ask, Have you ever told a lie? If you have, then how can you trust yourself to be truthful to yourself? Have you ever had something stolen? If you in turn steal from the thief that stole from you, does that make anything better? You see how the cycle develops right? Before long in this thinking, someone will die and the other will be imprisoned.

Jesus taught do to others as we would want to others to do to us --- regardless of how they are mis-treating you. He said:

Matthew 5:39
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

What you're saying 'sounds' good, but there is no foundation of truth to it. I'm sure you can agree: for truth to exist there has to be a foundational definition for truth in order to define truth. What makes something true? Does false make something true? If I can speak a lie and I can speak truth, how do I know which I'm speaking? Where does knowing the truth come from? It's obviously not in or of ourselves because we all lie and we have no way of separating true from false. This makes me believe that truth must come from without and not within. It must be pure truth with no false. As a starting point, John 14:6:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So I'm saying you're on to something, but truth can't be defined by something that is mixed with true and false as you suggest. It has to be defined by something that is pure truth, to me that is Jesus. That is why I believe God made the commandment Thou shalt not lie. So we could recognize that I can't possibly not lie or always speak the truth without some sort of external intervention from God.

@estarla:
I'm not sure where you go to church, but it doesn't matter. What matters most is your relationship with God. Legalism and the law, those things are merely to show our legalistic minds how flawed we are and how much we need Him. I know there are countless lives that have not seen a 'true' disciple of Christ. They do exist though! We humans tend to make messes of everything and leave a path of destruction in others' lives. Thanks for sharing!

@xirclebox:
Awesome! Thank you!

@Peroty:
Ok, so let me try and state how I understand what you are saying.

You believe:

Mark 12:31"love thy neighbour as thyself" is an important principle to live by and practice during interactions with others

You don't believe:

The source of the commandment and the fact that it has another equally important commandment which is to "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength"

So...
If the Bible, from which you gain the one life principle of loving thy neighbour as thyself, also says the other is equally important and like the first one. Aren't you also denying the one which you claim to live by, by denying its counterpart? So how can you do the second one without doing the first one? Are you kidding yourself into believing you love your neighbor without wholly believing what you say you believe?

1 John 4:7 states:

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

This passage says that 'love is of God'; meaning that love comes from knowing God, and you can't really love without knowing God. This goes back to the two commandments which Jesus stated. You can't love your neighbor without loving God because the love to love your neighbor comes from God Himself, for He is love.

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Again, thanks for the discussion its good for me to understand where others are coming from in their faith.

@peroty: If faith is a guidebook in how to live one's life, my question is which guide book do we use? There are many faith's. How do you know you have the right guide?

I think you misread, it doesn't read "none other commandment greater than this" it reads: "There is none other commandment greater than these." - meaning they are both equally important.

So, again, why would you choose one Christian principle to live by and not the others?

@peroty: I really want to see your point of view so I need to understand your position in regards to mine. What do you think the Bible means when it states:

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Proverbs 14:12)

And when you say you "try to live by the ideals set forth by the Christian faith", your idea of the Christian faith is basically Mark 12:31 which reads:

Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

I agree that is an important thing and most Christian's miss that, but if you believe that what about the other piece before it that reads:

Mark 12:29-30
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Do you also believe this? If not, why would you choose one Christian principle to live by and not the others? Thanks for your time!

indeed

I think its interesting that someone can believe in two things that totally contradict each other. For a Christian to believe in reincarnation means that the power of Christ's death and incorruptible bodily resurrection wasn't good enough, thus denying Him as the Christ, God, and the only Way.

JAMES 1:5-8
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord;
8he is a double–minded man, unstable in all he does.

The question leads me to believe you don't understand Christianity.

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