13 CommentsBoth of my girls now do school at home. Not traditional "homeschool" where Mom is the teacher, but online learning where the curriculum is set and graded by the program on the site, and/or by their teachers or mentors. Mom's here for help when they need it.
The problem with math (even before they were schooled online) has always been that as soon as they start to have problems with math, and I try to help, I start to see this from the kids:
1. their shoulders start to droop;
2. they sink lower and lower in the chair;
3. the grip on the pencil goes slack;
4. the handwriting gets sloppy;
5. they begin to mumble, or not answer at all;
6. the attitude plummets and is projected in waves from their little bodies;
7. it becomes obvious that they don't even want to try.
I can sit here and watch the frustration set in. I want to help with their school work, I always have, but trying to help when they don't even act like they want help is just as frustrating to me as the math is to them. When they were in public and/or private schools, I thought that part of the problem was that I didn't always understand the teaching methods for math as it's being taught in schools now, since some of it is very different from the way that I learned math. Sometimes the kids would come home with homework that they didn't understand, and I wouldn't know how the teacher had explained it in the first place (or if they explained it at all sometimes), and so I did what I could but I was afraid to confuse the kid even more.
Now that they do school online, I'm not so sure that method is the issue, since I can sit with them throughout the entire lesson, and understand perfectly the methods presented. When I try to help the kids by going through the mathematical process step by step, or present the material in different terms, it all goes downhill from there. If I stop and say "maybe we need to come back to this later when you're not so frustrated," they just get more frustrated than before, and then they get mad. It becomes a pouting session. At that point, whatever amount of my patience is left is quickly used up.
Does anyone have any advice? Have you been through this with your own kids?
leliathomas
Written Oct. 3, 2007 / Report /
A few questions:
1) Are they much stronger in language arts or the arts in general? Even if they are, there is no reason they cannot get basic maths, of course, but it can, depending on their personality and makeups, affect how they perceive the mathematical task ahead. I was always okay with basic math, but I found it pretty unbearable once it got past that, and I think that's simply because I'm just not so predispositioned for it; I can learn it, but only with lots of frustration, despite my best efforts.
2) Are they coming to you for help first, or are you asking them if they need help before they voice a concern? Some children find that annoying and undermining their growing independence in learning.
3) Have you asked them directly what it is about math that they do or don't like, do or don't understand? If they're finding one particular part boring or difficult, but not others, that will help you narrow things down, at least.
4) Depending on what type of math this is, you may find tangible, touchable examples more helpful in their learning. What sort of learning styles do they have (i.e., more visual, auditory or physical)? That may be a good angle to start with.
dreamweaver
Written Oct. 3, 2007 / Report /
All great questions so here goes:
1) I would say that both my kids are considerably stronger in language arts than math. My oldest (15) is just trying to get through Algebra I because she knows she has to, but doesn't really care one way or the other whether she learns it at this point, but she was the same way with the frustration when she was the age my youngest is now. My youngest daughter (10), does better in math overall than the oldest, but yes, they are both stronger in language arts. I was fine with math until pre-calc, and truly enjoyed most of it. I don't remember ever having these types of issues anyway.
2) My youngest asks for help when she needs it most of the time, but since we're all here together on the computers when they study, sometimes I can see she's having trouble and I will ask if she needs help. I do see your point, and I don't jump in too quickly, but try to aim for that moment where she's tried but can't seem to get it, but she's not frustrated yet.
3) I don't know that I have asked them directly, not lately anyway, but after we get over the really bad school day that the youngest had today (after the math, there was a meltdown over a science test too, so perhaps it was just not a great day for learning altogether), I may sit down and try to chat about it with her.
4) Going to think on this one as well. The thing today that set her off was adding and subtracting mixed fractions, so I may have to get out some visual aids if I can think of what to use...
Thanks for the help, lelia!
leliathomas
Written Oct. 3, 2007 / Report /
1) Some would disagree with me on this, but I think so long as people know basic math (in other words, can deal well with the math of their finances in the future), acing the math subjects above that level are not a necessity. If it is not your interest and/or strong point, the point is to get through. It is just that way for some. I'm a similar case. My mother was always good at math, and my father was a mechanical engineer. I, however, am good at words and art and pretty well freeze beyond basic math. I got through the rest, and the lack of expertise in it has not harmed me in the least. I just met a requirement.
2) Considering you've got a pre-teen and a teen, maybe it would be better to give them more space when working at this point. Those are their grades, and their responsibilities now, more now than in the past. Part of the learning process is knowing when you need help, so maybe give them a little more independence, to the point where they would come get you if they needed your help.
3) Good luck! Those days are hard!
4) Use pie. :D Everyone loves pie!
P.S. - Take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm no parent, but I am interested in education and want to teach. I was also homeschooled and in independent studies for parts of my schooling years, and I know that's a different environment. Sometimes the frustration is as much parent-to-child as it is teacher-to-pupil!
dreamweaver
Written Oct. 3, 2007 / Report /
I agree with you on the amount of math that's really needed, however, what I saw with my oldest was that she didn't fully master a few of the key concepts early on, and since new math concepts just keep building on top of ones that are already covered, she was more lost than she should have been later on. That's what I'm trying to prevent with the younger child at this point.
The other issue here is that with the online education program that we use, she cannot progress to the next lessons until she has "mastered" material, and mastery means getting 80% or better on the tests. The program is totally self paced, and she can revisit information and retest, but that's what caused the meltdown tears about science today. She took a chapter test multiple times and couldn't get 80% or better.
The good part of this program is that we CAN decide to put off any more science for a while, and work on language arts or social studies now. At the beginning of the school year, I let her choose which courses she wanted to work on first, but I think we need to separate the math and science, since they are both harder for her.
And yes, I know that some of this difficulty is because I'm the Mom!
jensized
Written Oct. 3, 2007 / Report /
I can definitely relate to your older daughter's problem. I missed three days of school in Algebra I and was lost from that point forward. Plus I wasn't really math-oriented to begin with— more left-brained, I suppose. It's definitely a struggle. Homework often frustrated me to tears.
I don't really have any advice to offer, though. I just kinda scraped by and did as much extra-credit as I could, and then took the lowest-level courses I could get away with in college.
David
Written Oct. 3, 2007 / Report /
I was generally good at everything in school so I'm not sure I really understand the left-brain/right-brain philosophy. If your children are struggling with math and it is not something you are particularly strong at, then I would recommend you find them a good tutor immediately. My cousin schools his two boys at home and I gave him the same advice when it came to English lit. If your older daughter has indeed missed a fundamental concept somewhere, re-taking a test until she passes with isn't going to help. Learning is a personal journey so I wouldn't ever worry about confusing them by teaching them a different way to look at a problem. In the end, they need to figure it out for themselves... either by practice or one of those magical 'oh' moments when everything starts to make sense.
Just out of curiosity, what specific aspect of math is she struggling with? Can you post a few of the questions she answered incorrectly on her last test?
dreamweaver
Written Oct. 3, 2007 / Report /
@David: today the math problems centered around adding and subtracting mixed numbers with regrouping and fractions. And it's not that I'm bad at math, or don't understand it myself, it's that figuring out ways to help the kids understand it is the problem, without triggering the frustration issues. I can handle the math itself until we get to pre-calc anyway, and this wasn't a test today, just a lesson. The testing issue today was in science, not math.
I agree with you about figuring it out for themselves and the "oh" moments, though; I still have those "oh" moments where it all makes sense suddenly (about other things besides math!).
maryann
Written Oct. 3, 2007 / Report /
Hi Dreamweaver!
Also not a parent, but I did have maths problems in school. I do have some talent for it somewhere in there but I could never get my head round what we were taught. I could scrape though everything up to calculus then was totally lost. I haven't been tested for this (right now I don't need to know more than I do already) but I think I'm a visual-spatial learner. I just don't understand little bits of abstract maths but I got trigonometry because my Dad built a gate with it. That sort of thing.
Have a look at <a href=
http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/Articles/vsl/v05.pdf>this and see if any of it rings a bell. Looking up info about different learning styles and multiple intelligences will probably be useful anyway.
edit: also see http://www.ldpride.net/learningstyles.MI.htm
leliathomas
Written Oct. 3, 2007 / Report /
That sounds like a really good program, actually. I think it's so much better to promote multiple efforts on the same project, so the objective remains to be learning, which sometimes does take a "try, try again" attitude. (I had a sixth grade teacher who did this in my primary school, and she was sort of shunned because of it. God forbid the objective ever be for everyone to learn!)
A tutor may be a good option, as David recommended, but I don't think it is an issue of the teacher, because you have not seen improvement from one learning setting to another. Which suggests to me two things: (1) math just isn't her thing, really, and (2) she needs a different way of learning, maybe not a different teacher.
I was thinking about this earlier, and one thing I think you could do is go to some online homeschoolers' forums. Not only will people in that situation or yours be better suited at helping you teach your own children, but I also tend to think there are very innovative ways of teaching in that sector. Maybe mix that with what you learn about your children's learning styles, and you'll be closer to teaching them in a way they will understand.
auburn
Written Oct. 4, 2007 / Report /
I want to offer off the wall ideas. Sometimes a math teacher at the high school or middle school level in the nearest public school may be a consultant to you. Maybe there are strategies he or she can quickly show you that will help in presenting the material. Also, are there a few other children / homeschooled students in your area? Is there an official group or association you can join to get ideas and support?
cooper
Written Oct. 4, 2007 / Report /
Why not find other home schooled groups. I learned basic math - elementary level at a "Friends School" in Tasmania. I've always been good at it but I think it has a lot to do with how I was taught math. They were big on concepts to the point of writing and speaking about the concepts as early as kindergarten and first grade. They were also big on group learning where concepts were discussed in groups and everyone would share the way they solved a problems and why they did it that way. I think that is why math made sense to me from the beginning.
I don't have kids but I know that kids I ended up in school with years later were not taught math that way and I always felt I understood it better.
My very first real boyfriend in high school was home taught until his freshman year of high school, he was exceptional at math but was also taught in group form for math - in other words they had a group of home schoolers and the kids went to the math house for math the format when explained to me seemed much like the way I was taught.
dreamweaver
Written Oct. 5, 2007 / Report /
Wow! I got sidetracked (partly by school itself), and I'm only now just getting back to this.
@maryann, Thanks for the links! I'll check them out shortly.
@lelia, though we are seeing the same reaction to math now as we did when she was in public school, I don't really know if the frustration was happening when the teacher was trying to help her (as I did with homework, or as I do now with the online learning) or not. I suspect not, but only because the teacher may never have interacted with her one on one long enough to get to the frustration point, what with 28 kids in the class.
@auburn, another great idea, and I may have to ask at the school to see what I can come up with.
@cooper, your early schooling sounds a lot like the IB school that my daughter went to for three years. Concepts were a big thing, and I could see the benefit of the teaching style.
Homeschool forums online sound like a great place to look for some tips and ideas, though the homeschool group where I live isn't meeting any longer, unfortunately.
I hadn't thought about trying to explain the concepts in other ways, to support her learning style really, so I really appreciate all the input here!
Jawaher_1995
Written Oct. 27, 2007 / Report /
Well, Maths is kind of the most important thing in life, think about it, it's the beggining of everything... However students and especially kids hate studying for mathematics because it is the most subject that requires thinking, writing, explaining, following up and understanding... Ofcourse it also depends on the students personality is he/she a hard worker? some people love Maths and find it easier than other subjects like science for example. I think Math teachers specifically should try to make lessons fun by activities, gifts, certificates, rewards, etc.
Parents should push students towards Mathematics too as home influence goes first!
My experience in Mathematical education wasn't bad though, when I was in 1st to 4th grade, Maths was so easy and I didn't mind working on it at all.When I got to grade 4 I had this horrible teacher which made Maths seem so miserable. I stayed on that impression till grade seven when I had this lovely teacher & she made everything easy and fun again. This makes me believe now that teachers have a great effect on their student's grades, other people don't believe in this...It's an opinion!On the contrary, if someone wants to get a good grade he can do it...Even if it was without a teacher at all
My teacher always says:"Mathematics is all about believing in yourself!!" I guess that's true!