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You know.... a few months ago I wrote about that same topic on Newsvine... I say yes, but then I was also a special education student.

You can't tell someone that they "can do it" if you don't let them actually do it, now can you? Letting someone achieve on their own merits brings greater reward then pushing them along and half way doing it for them. I understand that the idea is to give them more attention but if they don't learn how to function in the mainstream classroom, then they won't learn to function in the more cruel mainstream world.

Shoudl we just drop them into a class and say "good luck"? Not by any means, but many special education programs now have a system to integrate a student into mainstream classes.

However, and a pre-apology for the link, but I feel it offers an answer to your question in greater detail that I can say here.

The Learning Curve - Special Education

I hope Auburn pops in here, she definitely has some insight on this subject.

I think all students should be included in regular classes.

It's not how students should be labeled and categorized. We just need more creative teachers and teaching methods to cater different needs of different students.

Even though Howard Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intelligence has been out for over 20 years and has been incorporated in a lot of teacher education programs and has influenced more or less the education system reforms, it is sad to see that academic achievement is still seen as the only/major indicator for success of a student in the system.

My opinions are based on US public schools only. Special education is federal law and therefore applicable to all states and armed services bases but I only have experience in NY state.
There is a mighty huge difference between the needs of a child (read that preschool to middle school) and that of a teenager. There is also a very significant difference in the flexibility of teacher time and curriculum. Example: a 3rd grader learning about the Middle Ages in social studies. Pretend that student learns best and easiest by the use of manipulatives. The art teacher can consult with the classroom teacher and provide supplies / resources so the student can demonstrate his learning by building a castle. He is part of a small group. Another child learns best and easiest by using tech skills and finds sites about castles, 'writes' and prints out a traditional type report on computer. Another group member watches tapes the teacher provides. He is an auditory learner and knows about the Middle Ages from listening and watching but not writing. One 3rd grader writes a song that might have been sung at that time. The music teacher consults with the classroom teacher. The group then presents to the whole class their Middle Ages project and the two members who learn by teaching others makes the verbal presentation.
This takes two months. Contrast it with:
Grade 10 Global Studies leading to a regents exam and diploma. There is a curriculum and a text book the State Education Department has approved. The subject is WWII; the history and cultural factors, the European countries involved, the US response, the US public and military / political reaction, the causes of this particular war. All students must pass the regents. This is only one very small part of this course and takes two weeks.
Is inclusion workable, effective, successful, less costly to families and districts? Yes, at the elementary level.

After having worked in the teaching field for over 15 years, I say a definite yes, at the elementary level, and even the first year or two of middle school.

Q. In or out of the class?

Lorri said: a definite yes
Our survey says: Huh?

Oli: you didn't really ask me but I reread what I wrote and I see it wasn't clear "in or out of class"- so "in class" at elementary level where teachers have more flexibility and time. Kids also at that age are much more accepting of different strengths and learning styles. In the very long example I gave, the 3rd grader who built the castle would get the same if not more yumminess from classmates as the one who wrote a report from web sites.

What does special education mean to you? There are two ends of the spectrum here.

No I was asking Lorri what she meant by "yes". "Yes" isn't an answer for a question of two choices, however definite =)

And I couldn't agree with JeffJ more. I think the key to it all is having many smaller classes. You can then shift people around into sets according to their learning ability.

My average class size at school was probably about 15. A lot depended on the subject and my age at the time but they were small and in the more popular subject: plentiful. Splitting people up to give each the most attention possible is a good thing.

Smaller classes is something my district and taxpayers only dream of, but might offer more flexibility than exists now. At the secondary level, every student (and teacher) has a schedule and when that bell rings, class is over and they move to the next spot. Different subject, different teacher and different expectations (of the student and teacher). Not much time for individual attention or learning styles.

Jeff J, is your question to me?

Yes, for inclusion into the regular classroom situation, to the maximum amount of time possible, for the student, depending upon the variables within their special education needs.

Smaller classes would be ideal, as more individual attention could conceivably be given to the student. That is not always a possibility, due to various factors, including the location of the school, and the budget allocated for that given district.

In middle school (in most states), each subject is taught by a different teacher and in different classrooms, and it might make learning in a regular classroom setting a bit more difficult than at the elementary school level.

I'm not ready to debate my stance on this issue just yet because I don't think the terms have been clearly defined. I think Oli really got what I was trying to point out. It was really a general question, but it would help if the original poster, kelsnotchels, answered too.

Just to give some background info, the reason I ask what everyone means by special education is that I was in the "gifted" program from elementary school on up through highschool and that was considered special education. We were separated from everyone else and it wasn't very well planned out because the class sizes got close to the 40's, ridiculous. I'm sure you can guess what kind of an effect that would have on the learning environment and why I'm a bit bitter about the whole thing.

JeffJ: I'd really like to hear from folks who have experienced this, like you have. The thing is, that gifted program was not about special ed but the taxpayers in your district thought it was important to develop and foot the bill. It's not legally mandated and there is no oversight. To have classes of 40 is ridiculous! No wonder you still have bitter memories of it! Add to that the teachers feelings and you have a real, sad mess.

Like JeffJ, I was in a gifted program from elementary school through high school. It was quite an interesting situation that the city school board devised (and in retrospect, quite obvious they had no idea what they were doing since the program structure I was in has now since dissolved). Personally, I think there should be a mix of "in class" and "out of class" interaction; the students shouldn't be made to feel isolated, but they should have some special time away from normal classes with curriculum more geared towards their particular development.

Here's my "special education" story:

What they did was have gifted students attend more than one elementary school concurrently. From first grade through fifth grade, I would attend one school on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, then another school on Tuesdays and Thursdays. The school I attended on Tuesdays and Thursdays had their "special education" program, which was essentially gifted, LD, (learning disability) TMR (total mental retardation), physically disabled and developmentally challenged children, all in the same class. The number of students fluctuated, with the average being around thirty throughout those years.

In sixth grade, the school board decided to start a separate gifted program at another school, so now I was attending a different school on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Our classes were much smaller (maybe 10, total, including the teacher), but we were put in a trailer outside of the school where other special education students were (in other trailers).

During seventh through eleventh grade, the gifted program was pared down dramatically. Now, the gifted classes were restricted to just one period a day, but the class size was still small (seven people, maximum). There was a year I didn't attend any gifted classes (tenth grade) because I was overseas.

In twelfth grade, they reinstated the whole "one student, two schools" gifted program, so now I was attending a different high school during senior year two days a week. This was probably the worst part of my gifted education tenure, not just because I was going from an urban high school to a private, all-White school, but because the teacher was completely bereft of compassion towards anyone who she didn't feel was "normal" (in other words, the entire class). She mostly used it as a vehicle to air grievances about her divorce and chain-smoke Marlboro Lights.

Karsh: OMG it's a wonder you came out of the system alive! That's the kind of experience that (now) parents or grandparents bring to the voting booths or school. It's so hard to be a supportive partner to the school when you have these memories...

I did answer... in my blog post... :) Shall I copy and paste the whole thing?

JeffJ: Forty students in a classroom is ridiculous and definitely not a good environment for learning, and I can understand your dismay.

Karsh: What a horrible experience for you, and like auburn said, "it's a wonder you came out of the system alive"!

To be fair it was close to 40, so I really meant high 30s. The tough part was that they put all of us in the same class, so we were an exclusive little group for all of elementary school with one teacher (changed every year with a few repeats). Talk about an adjustment come highschool. Half of our classes were still like this, with the same people though. So it was great when we all got to grade 12 and these "special" classes didn't exist and we were expected to integrate into a 1200 capacity school with 2000 students. Fun times indeed.

I'm still reeling trying to figure out if any of this actually helped me or seriously handicapped my academics because I have zero study skills or what would be considered good work habits. Frustration! Dismay! Oh, the horror! *sigh*

I guess I should've prefaced my story by saying that I was in Alabama....

I kid! I kid!

Looking back though, it was obvious that the school board had no idea what to do in terms of special education outside of mental retardation. The spectrum of children who are gifted, have learning disabilities or some other spectral disorder are just dust in the wind, settling where they can. It's sad.

I'm so uneasy putting the gifted in the same lump as 'special education'. As far as I know, there are no state or federal laws about how to evaluate or program for these kids. That's why if a district wants to do it, they develop the whole thing and pay for it entirely.
Small towns might have one profoundly mentally retarded student in a certain age range and have a contract through a regional BOCES to pay for transportation so she'll be educated at BOCES, not the local school building. There is no inclusion for that situation since the whole building consists of self-contained classes.

Kelsnotchels: how do our answers / comments / experiences compare to your own thoughts?

As a noob, I wasn't sure if my blog post was meant to be the extent of my input in the notes...

So, thanks for asking! :)

Here, gifted students are not classified as special ed, so that was not something I was including in my original question.

To save time, let me copy some of my original post...

...there will always be students who will be better served in specialized and isolated settings. However, a great majority of students are quite likely to benefit from being included. It is something that I believe we should strive for, when it would be in the best interest of the student in question.

You have to look at it student by student... there are people who study, and are skilled in the area of student assessment who are able to evaluate what the best setting for each student should be. I think that schools should be more FLEXIBLE about their placement. It should not be "all" are separated, or "all" are included. Each child needs something different.

That is why I'm studying what I am, and why I teach these students when others wouldn't

As a former special ed teacher, I feel the answer lies in two areas; 1) where are the best resources to teach the pupil - in a mainstream school or in special school?
2) The nature and needs of the pupil, where could they best be met? - in a mainstream or special needs school

As a special teacher, I often had pupils joining my class who had previously been included in mainstream schools. Almost inevitably their skills and abilities where poorer than pupils who had been educated in the special school from the outset.

This, however, at that time was due to mainstream schools not having the resources to meet the needs of those special needs pupils. Some of the resources were very expensive and it was not economically viable for the mainstream school to purchase them for just one, two or a few pupils. A special school, however, had more pupils requiring such equipment and it was more economically and educationally viable for them to make such purchases.

Also, at that time, teachers in mainstream schools were generally not trained to meet the needs of special needs pupils. The experience of staff in special schools was far greater and most were specially trained.

However, with better training and better allocation of educational resources, it has now become more viable for special needs pupils to be educated in mainstream schools alongside their peers.